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  • « The great gay migration | Main | The Week on GNW (Dec. 21-27) »

    December 26, 2008

    Give us your pedigreed few...

    Posted by: Chris

    Immigratbush

    In response to my post about the arrogant and counterproductive attitude taken by the Bush administration toward immigration, one reader suggested we replace current policy that prioritizes uniting families with one that admits based on wealth and intellect. In reply, tongue planted firmly in cheek, I wrote:

    Ahh, don't ya just love liberal elitism? I can just see the new Statue of Liberty: "Give me your well-rested and well-fed, Your pedigreed intellectuals yearning for an even higher salary and a better 401(k)..."

    That, in turn, set another reader off:

    Umm, Chris... Austrailia and Canada, among several other countries, are doing exactly that. They are welcoming and encouraging the best minds that this country has to offer, to come to their shores and offering them incentives to do so. The film industry, is but one example among many.

    I just don't follow your logic at times, Chris. In one breath, you make the comment "So porous borders result in 11 million illegal immigrants" and in the next breath, you defend them with your above quoted comment. You appear, more often than not, to be purpose-driven to keep everyone on this blog partitioned and disunited. …

    Taking in all of the "poor, huddled masses" in exchange for all the intelligent, best educated, best minds and productive people, is nothing more than a "brain drain" to the U.S. as a Canadian newspaper article called it. … We call it "social welfare" to make is sound PC, but it is really nothing more a deadly disease that is tearing the fabric of our society apart, destroying the middle class and dividing us into a nation of haves and have-nots.

    When there is no middle-class left to pay taxes, who will be paying for the social welfare programs that this country is rife with? … Depression, hell. We are plummeting into a Third-World status with the speed of a lead balloon. At the rate things are going in this country, we can stick our heads up our asses and kiss it goodbye.

    Popewind Note the overwrought, panicked rhetoric used here, as if our very way of life is threatened if we don't further restrict our borders. It calls to mind "the sky will fall" arguments we regularly hear in opposition to marriage equality, as if human society faces extinction if gay couples can marry. Consider this ditty last week from the pope:

    “The tropical forests do deserve our protection. But man, as a creature, does not deserve any less," Pope Benedict told scores of prelates. "What’s needed is something like a ‘human ecology,’ understood in the right sense. It’s not simply an outdated metaphysics if the Church speaks of the nature of the human person as man and woman, and asks that this order of creation be respected.”

    There has always been a certain segment of society that wishes to limit freedom or exclude others for fear our "way of life" is threatened. They are pretty much always on the wrong side of the argument, not to mention the wrong side of history, and they show remarkably little confidence that their vaunted "way of life" has enough merit in and of itself to adapt, survive and thrive.

    More to the point, my commenter missed the point of that post, which was not to bemoan "porous American borders" but to point out that U.S. immigration policy makes sneaking across a much more effective means of entry than following the rules.

    I can only shake my head at the cold-hearted sorts who believe the immigration policy of the United States of America, the strongest nation in history and one built almost entirely by immigrants, should be retooled as some sort of corporate recruitment policy. Unless we further tarnish her image with arrogant and restrictive policies, America will always attract those yearning for freedom and opportunity, at all economic levels. 

    The rolls of "social welfare" programs have declined over the years, not increased, and those low-income, (even illegal) immigrants work harder than most Americans and at jobs we don't want. If you want the sky to fall, try actually making all 11 million of them leave! Not to mention that the same immigration policy they advocate now would almost certainly have excluded their own ancestors.

    The U.S. will always attract more than our share of "the best and the brightest" so long as we remain an open, inviting society. We don't need to follow the Aussies, hardly xenophobic-free themselves, who after all are trying to entice folks to move to the opposite side of the planet, or Canadians, trying to overcome a beastly cold climate.

    All in all, it's terribly sad and disappointing to me to see gay folk turn up their noses at others whose lives have been made more difficult by cultural bigotry. Having lived as outcasts, we ought to show more compassion for others on the ouside.

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    Comments

    1. Chuck on Dec 26, 2008 11:34:11 PM:

      Well, bless your pea-pickin’ little heart, Chris. I consider myself highly honored. By quoting my comments, verbatim, you have given me a modicum of credibility; in much the same manner as you have given Pastor Warren’s comments plausibility by quoting them.

      Unlike Reverend Warren, however, you neglected to give me credit by name. And unlike Reverend Warren, I will stand by my words, take full responsibility for them and not attempt to weasel out of them like he has, despite your attempt to shame and intimidate me and some of the other posters from what is beginning to sound increasingly more like a bully-pulpit with each passing day.

      Fist off, I did not have the benefit of a face-to-face dialogue with you, so I could not see your tongue planted firmly in your cheek. Obviously, I misread the intent of your comment and you are due an apology for my having done so. One of the many perils of the written word

      That said, I failed see the purpose of likening me to a bogy-man with the comparison of my comments to that of loony ranting and ravings of the Prada shod, fetchingly clad and stylish shawl-wearing high priestess of fashion who occupies an elegant suite of opulently furnished and decorated rooms at the Vatican while the rest of plebian mortals make do with Levi 501s, modest digs and second-class citizenry.

      Where you get the notion that I am opposition to marriage equality is completely beyond me. If you will but read some of the many posts that I have directed to your attention over the past year, and which you have chosen in the past to ignore, you would be aware that I am in exactly the same boat as you are with respect to being involved in a multinational relationship and as anxious to see the passing of the UAFA, the repeal of DADT and the striking down of DOMA. Please get your facts straight before making a straw man of me. I am not “agin” ya. I am with you on those issues in case you haven’t taken notice.

      As to making the ludicrous assertion that I wish to limit the rights and freedoms of others out of fear of my way of life being threatened, where did you get that crazy, ill-conceived notion? I have never, ever, said anything on these threads to that effect. You, Sir, have just made yourself guilty of character assassination and I suggest to you, that perhaps you are the one who is on the wrong side of history with your staunch defense of Dr. Warren’s bigoted, hateful and homophobic comments. Talk about throwing stones in a glass house?

      You did, in fact, use the words “porous American borders" and went on to explain that you did so in order to point out that our immigration policy makes sneaking across a much more effective means of entry than following the rules.

      We are in total agreement on that point. No argument here. It’s a sad commentary when some 13 million illegal aliens are allowed to sneak into this country, without fear of consequence, when my own father was sent back to Germany in 1954 for being an illegal alien while I was only 14 and my brother was only 4. It took 15,long, painful years of absence before we could legally get him back to American, and by that time, my brother and I were fully grown men and my father had become an old man in ill health. I lost him not quite a full year later in a horrible car crash that took his life on Christmas Eve of 1969.

      You are not the only one who has suffered emotional pain as a result of the idiotic immigration policies that serve only to keep people separated from their loved ones under the guise of national security, so I really don’t understand why you have chosen to pick a battle with me on this particular point.

      I, of all people, do not need a sermon from you about the contributions of immigrants. I paid attention to my history books in school too. Every member of my was a working-class immigrant from the old country, whom, as you pointed out, helped to build this country. Post depression folks, we were so Goddamned poor, that I had to go to work at the age of 12 to help feed and support my family and by the age of 14, I had already left home and were supporting myself as well.

      I was grubbing potatoes, bailing hay, picking apples, shucking corn, slopping hogs and shoveling cow manure before you were even a gleam in your father's eye. I was obliged to leave high school in my Junior year just to make a livig, so who the hell are you, Mr. elite college graduate lawyer, to lecture me on history like I am some sort of Benedict Arnold who would send my own grandmother back to the old country just because her papers were not in order? You've got some fucking nerve, mister!

      If my “view” on immigration strikes you as cold-hearted, let me remind you that every single member of my family, with the exception of my father immigrated to this country under the quota system. They completed their documentation. They produced and filed their papers, with the required filing fees, they learned English and they waited their turn like veryone else to come here in steerage. The only reason my father did not come over under the quota, was due to the fact that he was fleeing from the fascist Nazis who were taking over Hitler’s Germany. He would have been shot as an enemy of the State, had he been sent back to Germany during WWII.

      My family did not just brazenly walk across a river, sneak in under cover of night or have themselves taken across American borders by greenback transporters for a fee and flaunt the laws of this country and then protest in the streets of America for their “rights” and financial benefits that we, of the working class here in America, have to pay for in the form of exorbitant income taxes.

      My mother's grandparents slaved to save money for the cost of a house in Queens, NY. There were no mortgages in those days and credit cards did not exist during the war. Grandpa worked from before dawn to after dark as an "oiler" of the candy-making machinery at the Arden Candy Factory in L.I.C. That company and the jobs it offered are now gone. We buy our candy from China now, along with all the other products we no longer make in the U.S.A. Grandpa would be among the throngs of the steadily rising unemployed in America and wondering what the hell had gone wrong, like so many other Americans are asking themselves.

      I wonder how my grandparents would feel, were they still alive, if they were losing their home, their savings and investments due to the disastrous "porous" immigration policies and idiotic free trade policies of the Republican Bush Administration that just "terrorized" this nation financially? And how much "assistance" would our government be giving them for having invested so heavily in the American dream, only to have it yanked out from under them, while we offer "carte blanche" and "humanitarian aid" to the illegal aliens pouring across our borders in search of a free handout or to take the job of an American worker who also needs to feed his family. We must do the American working class in so we can be altruistic?

      I want you to know, Mr. bleeding-heart socialist, that I probably paid more in income taxes last year, as a productive member of our society, than you probably earned for the entire fucking year. My grandparents would be turning over in their graves if they could see what is going on presently in America.

      “We don’t need to follow the Aussies, hardly xenophobic-free themselves, who after all are trying to entice folks to move to the opposite side of the planet.”

      You say it like it's a bad thing. That's how capitalism works, buddy, like it or not. Water seeks it's own level.

      Freely translated, “I don’t need no stinkin’s facts here. We know who the xenophobes are, don’t we?”

      When you can't win the argument with fact, the way to “get em” is to use character assassination by calling the folks who don’t agree with your socialist viewpoints and willingness to give everything away to people who have not earned it or paid anything into the system from which they take (extract) it as their “God-given” right.

      You wanna holler at someone about immigration policies, then go to Washington and holler at the son-of-a-bitches that won’t allow you and me to bring our qualified, productive and well-documented partners to this country, while they do nothing to stem the tide of illegal, uneducated immigrants who bring all of their homophobic bigotry, social problems, excessive breeding habits in an attempt to gain a foothold on American soil and drug problems/wars that have turned Los Angeles and other California cities into nightmares for the police and native citizenry to deal with and pay for.

      Just for you edification, in case are not aware of it, Los Angeles is on the verge of bankruptcy. Many other California cities will soon follow in their footsteps because of uncontrolled immigration. But no, we can't have faggots coming to California with money in hand to get married and help ease the financial crunch, can we? Better to have thousands of drug lords, people being killed on the streets and in their homes and our kids on drugs than support the sin of homosexuality, God forbid. Talk about turning a blind eye to reality.

      http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/laplaza/2008/08/mexico-drug-war.html

      http://articles.latimes.com/2008/nov/16/nation/na-cartels16

      Do some homework and Google the reality of what is going on in this country instead of merely singing the praises of unlimited immigration policies for “the poor, huddled masses” and all of that rhetoric. That was another time and place and in a much less densely populated and ecologically challenged land. Times have changed and we cannot realistically be expected to be the savior of the entire planet, no matter how noble the idea sounds. Everything has limits.

      “The U.S. will always attract more than our share of “the best and the brightest” so long as we remain an open, inviting society.”

      Yep yep. Just stick your head in the sand or anyplace else that suits you.

      “Problem? What problem? I don’t see no stinkin’ problem. Do you see a problem?”

      Apparently, you are so busy bloging away at us “overwrought, panicked rhetoric-filled, the sky will fall, gays”, in defense of homo-hater, Rick Warren, and trying to convince us how “smart” Mr. Obama is for choosing him, that you apparently don’t get out much or spend much time reading.

      Richard Florida, the author of The Flight of the creative Class, makes a thought provoking and sobering argument for America's flight of the best and the brightest. The "Great Gay Migration" article you just posted and which I commended very highly, is not limited to just gay people or to folks simply moving to a larger and more progressive cities. Huge numbers of both homosexuals and heterosexuals are making the migration to progressive countries like Canada, Australia and Asian destinations.

      Here is yet another article that warns about the loss of creativity that is further weakening our technological and financial leadership in the world.

      http://jayreding.com/archives/2008/12/11/the-great-american-brain-drain

      That loss of the best and brightest is as frightening and alarming as is the loss of American jobs that have been sent abroad to Third World countries with our idiotic and ill-fated free-trade policies while our national unemployment figure continue to rise meteorically and fuel our astronomical bank foreclosure rates and car repossession figures. But, the best is yet to come. Luckily, with your head apparently in the sand, you probably won't even notice it, unless of course, it comes up from behind and hits you in the ass.

      You can’t feed a starving family, pay the mortgage and make the car payments on unemployment checks that run out sooner or later while trying to find a non-existent job. But then, optimist and socialist that you appear to be, you are probably thinking that’s not such a bad thing. The collapse of the housing market and resultant loss of home values, represent an excellent opportunity for illegal aliens to realize their American dream of home ownership at vastly reduced prices. Isn't that a good thing and in the best interest of cultural diversity?

      It’s so comforting to know that no matter how dreadful or horrendous the scenario, or how much pain and suffering is caused by the bigotry, hatred and callousness of other, there will always those, like yourself, who can see the “upside” of any situation, no matter how terrible. That must give great comfort to people who have lost their retirement funds, their life savings, their home and their cars, so that all immigrants, including the illegal ones get a whack at the “good life”. That is the Americun way, isn’t it? All's fair in love, war and the marketplace.

      I cannot help but thinking that had you been around at the time of Anita Bryant, and given your protective stance toward wacky Warren, I would have no difficulty, whatsoever, envisioning you tossing roses and accolades at her while the rest of us overwrought and panicked silly fairies tossed rotten oranges and cream pies at her homophobic puss.

      We must defend the right of free speech at all costs, even when tht bitch wated to rob us of some of our rights too. There seems to be no end of them, does there?

      “Finally, it’s terribly sad and disappointing to hear gay folk turn up their noses to others whose lives are made more difficult by cultural bigotry. We ought to know better.”

      Ah yes. We must always, at all costs, defend the right of illegal aliens to flood into the country by the millions so that no one can accuse of us...umm…oh God, the words are so offensive to my ears and sensibilities that I can scarcely bring myself to utter the words…

      CULTURAL BIGOTRY.

      Thanks to your Utopian, altruistic and socialist ideas, many of us who work hard, pay our taxes, strive to bring about change in a country that is slowly going down the tubes, abide by the law and try to make the world a better place in which to live, now know who and what we are.

      If you were a Muslim and Ayan Rand were still alive, you would no doubt call for her stoning to death for her capitalistic ideas. How rude of her to think that we should be entitled to keep the fruits of our labors and not have them stolen from us lest we be labeled...oh, there’s those horribly obnoxious words again...cultural bigotry.

      Political correctness taken to the absurd. No doubt, you will be standing on the prow of the ship, waving your finger around in the air and shouting “cultural bigotry” as the ship slips beneath the waves.

    1. Chuck on Dec 27, 2008 1:43:10 AM:

      Chris, between the time you posted your original commentary which I printed out so I could make a point by point reply, and the time it took for me to make my response to it, you modified the original posting by adding the following paragraph:

      "The rolls of "social welfare" programs have declined over the years, not increased, and those low-income, (even illegal) immigrants work harder than most Americans and at jobs we don't want. If you want the sky to fall, try actually making all 11 million of them leave! Not to mention that the same immigration policy they advocate now would almost certainly have excluded their own ancestors."

      In just one short breath, you have made a plethora of statements and assumptions that don't seem to have a shed of evidence to support them.

      1) Do you have some actual documentation and figures to support your claim that "social welfare" have declined over the years or is this just your "opinion?"

      Facts. Data. Info, please?

      2) My research shows me that your figure of 11 million illegal aliens appears to be way off the mark.

      Where did you obtain that figure?

      "The Tucson sector Border Patrol union local 2544 on the number of illegal aliens in our nation: "There are currently 15 to 20 million illegal aliens in this country by many estimates, but the real numbers could be much higher and the numbers increase every day because our borders are not secure (no matter what the politicians tell you - don't believe them for a second)"."

      http://www.theamericanresistance.com/ref/illegal_alien_numbers.html

      Incidentally, Hispanics, at 39 million, are now the largest minority group in America. Given that the vast majority of Hispanics are followers of the Roman Catholic Church, do you anticipate that they will be voting for your right to bring your buddy to America any time soon? Would you care to givde me some good reasons why we "need" more Mexicans Illegal or otherwise) in this country?

      And please, don't give me the "Workers in the fields doing jobs that no American wants" rationale. It's trite, banal and tired.

      http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/census/2003-06-18-Census_x.htm

      3) "Those low-income, (even illegal) immigrants work harder than most Americans and at jobs we don't want?

      Izzatafact? Wal Mart in Dade City was raided last year by the immigration department, resulting in the collaring of several score of illegal Mexican aliens who were working "under the counter" without green cards. While many were employed as clerks at well above the Florida minimum wage, there were a number of illegal aliens who also enjoyed management positions at far more than minimum wage. The entire affair was hushed-up and there has been no further comment about it. In fact, it would appear that all references to it on Google have been scrubbed. Considering the size of Wal Mart and it's impact on the economy, that comes as no surprise.

      I realize that your elite legal beagle status would cause you to look down your nose at such menial, low paying positions, but you do need to know that there are hundreds, nay, thousands of older senior citizens just barely getting by on minimal monthly social security checks, that would have been only too happy to take those "low-income" jobs and would not have sniffled at doing so. And the level of politeness and service would have been a heck of a lot higher than the arrogant and often times rude Mexican clerks who could barely speak English, much less assist you or at least show you were to find something other than than just pointing and saying "aqui". To me, taht didn't smack of "working harder" than Americans. I don't recall American workers ever being allowed to take long afternoon siestas ala Mexicano-style.

      4) "Not to mention that the same immigration policy they advocate now would almost certainly have excluded their own ancestors." That's a Godwin's Law statement. It's presumptive and sounds like nothing more than just an opinion. Facts. Data. Info, please?

      5) "Having lived as outcasts, we ought to show more compassion for others on the outside."

      This is a lame and moot argument on your behalf. You are reaching for straws and looking to justify a situation that most logical, thinking people would readily understand is wrong, completely out of kilter and needs to be corrected ASAP before all decent paying jobs in America vanish completely.

      We are citizens of the U.S. We are entitled by birthright, just like everyone else in this country, to our civil-rights and all the benefits thereof that we have contributed to and paid for via the taxes that we have paid and continue to pay. Those are the facts and they differ radically from the following facts.

      1) Illegal aliens were not born here.

      2) Illegal aliens have been not naturalized.

      3) Illegal aliens have paid no taxes into the system.

      4) Illegal aliens have broken the law by sneaking into this country.

      5) Illegal aliens are in many cases, paying no income taxes.

      6) Illegal aliens are in many cases, paying no social security taxes.

      7) Illegal aliens are in many cases, paying no workman's compensation or disability taxes.

      8) Illegal aliens are displacing American workers in the job place as well as taking desperately needed work and contracts away from licensed, fully insured, tax-paying and legitimate contractors, plumbers, electricians and other professionals who cannot successfully compete with low-balling, non-licensed, non-insured and illegitimate jacks-of-all trades who "claim" to guarantee their work, but fade into oblivion the moment they take your money.

      9) Illegal aliens are in many cases receiving a free education.

      10) Illegal aliens are in many cases receiving free medical and dental care.

      These are but a few of the many reasons that do not hold water or support the "cultural diversity" argument for illegal immigration into the U.S.

      This is a fair comparison? You're beginning to sound exactly like Pastor Warren with your illogical and totally unfounded comparisons.

      I was brought up to believe in the work=reward ethic.

      Lotus-eaters, to my way of thinking, are not "entitled" to anything. They haven't earned it. What makes them think that they entitled to put their hand into YOUR pocket and take what they think belongs to them?

      I am certain that you would have loved Communist Russia in it's heyday. You and your partner could have set-up housekeeping there and received your 'fair share', no matter how hard you worked your asses off...or failed to.

      It wouldn't have made any difference, once way or the other. Too bad it collapsed after 70 years, eh?

    1. Arthur on Dec 27, 2008 11:04:07 AM:

      In the midst of the conflicting views of immigration being expressed is the fact, that the current system is so illogicial and driven by personal bias to the point that time spent capriciously denying law abiding families (especially those with horrible gay people in them) access to this country is not being spent catching true undesirables such as violent criminals from entering our country, let alone any with terroristic goals.

      However, some of you may be heartened by a number of reports that the economy has now gotten to the point that thousands of immigrants, legal or otherwise, are now actually returning to their home nations. One New Jersey neighborhood that was predominantly Brazilian immigrants is now almost a ghost town because the residents have realized that Brazil is now on the rise and they have a better chance of making a living there. And border guards are increasingly noticing almost as many people sneaking across FROM the U.S. into Mexico as are still coming in.

    1. Charlie on Dec 27, 2008 4:38:21 PM:

      I love how "elite" has become an insult. It carries so many meanings, but apparently all of them are bad!

    1. Pierre on Dec 27, 2008 8:42:37 PM:

      After living in Phoenix six years I've seen how hard life is for lots of illegal immigrants first hand. In my experience many of them DO work extraordinarily hard for really low pay doing jobs that no one else really wants, all to try to make a better life for themselves and their families. I'm constantly amazed by some of my Mexican friends (most illegal immigrants in Phoenix are Mexican) as well as their families. While so many of them are religious they are very often extremely open to their gay family members and friends. I've come to believe that our country would gain a lot by allowing them to become citizens and I think that many, if not most, could end up being gay allies.


    1. Lucrece on Dec 28, 2008 3:20:28 AM:

      Um, no, immigrants of the Hispanic kind are by and large not favorable to gay causes.

      With that said, I find it amusing how all the fast food restaurant positions over at airports in Texas are occupied by obviously illegal immigrants. All low class Hispanics.

    1. Dave on Dec 28, 2008 2:18:43 PM:

      Lucrece,

      Did it ever occur to you that there are quite a few gay immigrants "of the Hispanic Kind", that may be indeed favorable to gay causes if we can form alliances and build coalitions to help each other out in our respective causes? Something to think about, perhaps?

      Dave

    1. Lucrece on Dec 28, 2008 4:27:59 PM:

      Dave, I would know, I am one. If you keep the 1/10 number, most of those that come in will not be gay. Heterosexual Hispanics-- and those who actually immigrate, which are overwhelmingly low-class Hispanics-- are way behind the curve on gay rights.

      I know my own culture; don't presume to tell me how I should feel about having people of a culture I fled move in.

    1. Dave on Dec 28, 2008 8:40:22 PM:

      All I am saying is that the gay community as well as the hispanic community could stand to benefit by forming alliances and coalitions. They have much to gain by supporting their respective causes. I am saying that is necessarily an easy thing, either. We can try.

    1. gkruz on Dec 29, 2008 2:25:30 AM:

      Dave,
      What does the gay community really have to offer the Hispanic (i.e., Mexican, in this case, mostly) community? What value did the black community see in forming alliances with us? You got your answer in California, and for that matter, from Donna Brazile and the rest of the African-American power block in the Democratic Party this year. The LGBT community does not need to reach out to placate other minority groups. We need to fight for, and demand our own rights, no matter who is or isn't on board with us. We don't need to give anyone else the idea that we exist at their sufferance, or need their permission to enjoy the same rights and privileges as them, or even to merely exist. Those of you consumed by white liberal guilt need to get over it fast and look out for your own interests first. Nobody, and I mean, NOBODY else will do it for us.

    1. Chuck on Dec 29, 2008 3:46:17 AM:

      Dave said: "We can try".

      Um, Davey boy, we HAVE been trying, for at least a couple thousand years now.

      Just when do you think that all these folks who hate us and want to keep us as second class citizens might come around to our way of thinking that they should "give" us our right, like some kind of Santas gift that we need to be good boys for in order to deserve?

      In another couple of thousand years, perhaps?

      I for one am tired of seeing an empty space under the Christmas tree. Perhaps it is time we started wrapping our own "gits" and placing them under the tree.

      Nobody, and I mean, NOBODY else will do it for us.

      Oops...I think I just committed plagiarism. ;-)

    1. Robguy on Dec 29, 2008 7:42:53 AM:

      As one of two Americans that chose to move 1/2 way around the world - our current (OZ) federal government, state government, employer, and even the staff in the stores where we shop - all treat us better than when we lived in "liberal" Madison, Wisconsin.
      [and before anyone goes around blaming ethnic groups - it was mostly poor and uneducated that voted for prop 8. Come to think of it, that's probably something we could work with those other communities on.]

    1. the troll on Dec 29, 2008 12:17:24 PM:

      Vancouver is fortunate that most of their immigrants come from the very athiest Hong Kong part of the world. They couldn't be more thrilled with gay people.

    1. Chuck on Dec 29, 2008 1:08:55 PM:

      "it was mostly poor and uneducated that voted for prop 8."

      BINGO!

      The poor and uneducated are motivated intrinsically and entirely by the unfounded notion that those who have more than they do are basically evil, are responsible for them not having and as such, need to punished.

      People who are financially secure and well educated tend to be secure within themselves, urbane and open-minded and are not threatened by anyone else's lifestyle.

      A visit to Italy, France, Greece or just any other European country for a week or two will bear that out.

      Education and travel (same thing) are two of the finest learning tools. A pity that more do not avail themselves of them.

      A 42", HDTV, Flat-Screen TV,(the price of a round-trip ticket to Europe), Baseball and a six-pack of Budweiser seems to satisfy the needs of those inclined toward a mob-mentality.

    1. Chuck on Dec 29, 2008 1:11:50 PM:

      Actually, the price of a 42", HDTV, Flat-screen TV would cover the entire cost of a European package tour and then some.

    1. Dave on Dec 29, 2008 2:18:46 PM:

      Um, Davey boy, we HAVE been trying, for at least a couple thousand years now.

      Just when do you think that all these folks who hate us and want to keep us as second class citizens might come around to our way of thinking that they should "give" us our right, like some kind of Santas gift that we need to be good boys for in order to deserve?

      Well, we need to keep trying, and we need to try harder.

      From New America Media, Commentary, Surina Khan: "The Yes on 8 campaign effectively reached California’s diverse racial and ethnic communities with materials translated into at least 14 different languages including Spanish, Hmong, Vietnamese, Chinese, Filipino, Samoan, Punjabi, Farsi, Russian, and Polish."

      Did the No on 8 do a similar translation for even a few languages? No.

      gkruz: What does the gay community really have to offer the Hispanic (i.e., Mexican, in this case, mostly) community?

      That's a good question, that needs to be examined further. If similar groups are oppressing bothe the gay and latino communities, it would behoove both our communities to band together. If we can show our support for people other than ourselves, and our "kind", maybe these other groups, these other communities will be more sympathetic to our plights and battles for rights.


    1. Chuck on Dec 29, 2008 4:30:03 PM:

      "If we can show our support for people other than ourselves, and our "kind", maybe these other groups, these other communities will be more sympathetic to our plights and battles for rights."

      Oh Puleeeeeze, Louise! You say it like it's a fact, chiseled in stone...like the Ten Commandments.

      Same old same old. Keep throwing roses at you enemies and begging them for approval and acceptance and maybe they'll throw a few crumbs our way.

      Sorry. That's not good enough for me.

      You wanna kiss ass, go for it. We won't stop you. But, please, stop shoving your cowardice, pacifism and boot-licking preferences down the the throats of the rest of us who don't buy into that "turn-the-other-cheek" crapola. That's for losers. You're beginning to sound like a broken record and like the very people who took our rights away to begin with. I's supposed to suck up to them now that they have fucked me over, yet once again?

      Fuck you and the donkey you rode in on. I don't kiss the ass of anyone who enjoys shoving the tip of their boot up my ass every time they feel like it and stripping of my civil-rights by exercising their right as Americans to do so.

      After you've spent 72 years of you life banging you head on a wall, like I have, you might just get the fucking message.

      They hate your queer, fucking ass, baby. And that ain't never gonna change. If they didn't have you to kick around, what other "issue" could they use to collect the millions they collected over Proposition 8?. Hmmm?

      I'll place my bets on the courts, thank you. That's how the black community finally got their rights and it's the only way we are going to get ours. The NAACP and the uncle Toms, like the HRC and the LCRs are a total waste of time, money and energy.

      You see, I don't give a flying fuck if the Latinos don't like my queer ass. I didn't fucking invite them to come into my living room to begin with. They came on their own volition. I was here before they came here and who the fuck are they that I should have to cow-tow to them to get what should have been my birthright?

      They are guests in our country, not the other way around. I don't go to Mexico and tell the people down there how they should live. What give them the right to come here and tell us how to live?

      Pacifists like you are not helping us one damned bit. All you are doing is encouraging supporting their supposed superiority to us, their bigotry and hatred and holding us back.

      YOu can bet your last cent on that.

      I confused.

    1. Chuck on Dec 29, 2008 4:35:06 PM:

      Disregard the "I confused." at the end of my post. I was going to say something and changed my mind, but forgot to delete it.

    1. Chuck on Dec 29, 2008 4:45:49 PM:

      After thought to your comment:

      "Well, we need to keep trying, and we need to try harder."

      Yeah, right. That sounds as idiotic as the old adage, "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again."

      Did it ever occur to the dumb asshole who was credited for that stupid comment, that if you are not succeeding, then maybe you need to step back and take a good, hard look at what you are doing wrong?

      Banging you head on the wall over and over and over, is a fine example of try, try again.

      But wouldn't going to the garage and getting a drill and a key hole saw be an easier way of making an opening in the wall while saving all that wear and tear on your head?

    1. Dave on Dec 29, 2008 5:30:24 PM:

      Chuck,


      I confused you for someone who might care.

    1. Chuck on Dec 29, 2008 5:34:46 PM:

      Ole Davey boy has just treated us a very important lesson in life here. I pray that we are getting it.

      Like the Religious right, who are stuck in the belief that if they keep banging us on the head, over and over, with their bibles, we will eventually see the error or our ways, atone for our sins and become of one mind with them. Perish the thought.

      And people like Davey, who are equally stuck in the belief that if we keep being nice, courteous and respectful, keep trying as well as trying harder and kiss ass better than we've done it in the past, "they" might be more "sympathetic". What a darling fairy-tale.

      Sorry. That's just plain "pathetic"

      The French didn't fight back either when Hitler took over Paris without a shot being fired. Frenchmen apparently were more concerned with preserving Notre Dame, the Louvre and other historical landmarks than they were with preserving their civil-liberties and right to exist.

      Well, we all know how that turned-out, don't we? We had to go over there and liberate Paris for them so they wouldn't get their fingers, or their croissants soiled.

      So, that begs the question?

      Who is going to liberate the LGBT community when the last of our rights have been taken from us without a shot having been fired?

      Perhaps the time has come for Davey boy and other incurable dreamers, optimists and fools, to read up on Paragraph 175? It's a real eye-opener.

      Had he been among the approximately 10,000 homosexuals Hitler shipped off like cattle/swine to the extermination camps I wonder if Davey would have been busy preaching his "We need to keep trying, and we need to try harder" sermon to the occupants of his railroad cattle car and if that would have resulted in their survival?

      Me thinks not. For his efforts, he probably would have been "rewarded" with the dubious distinction of being used for some macabre medical experiments, after which he would have been exceedingly thankful for the mercy of being gassed to death in the ovens to end his suffering.

      As the old German philosopher said... "Ve grow too zoon olt...und too late schmart!"

      Another old axiom comes to mind as well.

      ‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’

      Begging for one's rights (or life) is comparable to doing nothing. All you are doing is putting yourself at the mercy of your inquisitor if, indeed, he has any mercy to show at all.

      How many times must we have this shown to us before we finally get it?

    1. gkruz on Dec 29, 2008 11:50:36 PM:

      "If similar groups are oppressing bothe the gay and latino communities, it would behoove both our communities to band together. If we can show our support for people other than ourselves, and our "kind", maybe these other groups, these other communities will be more sympathetic to our plights and battles for rights."

      Geez, Dave, this is where we came in! You're like the hamster on his little wheel, endlessly spinning around in the same spot and thinking he's getting somewhere. I'm not going to even bother repeating my argument because it's obvious that you still don't get it. But you, and everyone else reading this, should download episode #92 of Tranny Wreck Radio from itunes. This is transwoman Rebecca Ney's podcast and in this episode, recorded in the aftermath of Prop. 8, she interviews a black gay man and a black Lesbian about the attitudes among the black, straight and religious towards the LGBT community. It's eye-opening.

    1. Chris on Dec 30, 2008 1:40:47 PM:

      Chuck, I've written some long posts in my day but at more than 3,500 words, your "comment" cross way over the line into "rant" territory. If you care to condense it down to 800 to 1,000 words, I'd be happy to take a look.

      FYI, I do not publish reader names when I link to their earlier comments, because (a) I can't confirm they are who they say they are, and (b) the names they use are available for viewing to anyone who clicks on the link.

    1. the troll on Dec 30, 2008 4:16:45 PM:

      All sarcasm aside, my preferance would be for a drastic increase in legal immigration but with a selection process that gives us the immigrants that are in demand. I'd like to assist Bill Gates with his frustration of getting computer programs from India and China into the country. In some cases compasionate immigration also. For example I'd like to see compassion for a gay Arab who needs asylm to save his life. Or an Arab woman who could be executed if for adultry. But this "leaking in" does not really give us diversity, but rather a lop sided demographic that is determined by proximity and nothing else. And yes, I like the idea of a citizenship test like the Canadians use, or at least our version of it.

    1. Chuck on Dec 30, 2008 5:57:41 PM:

      Chris, you wrote:

      Chuck, I've written some long posts in my day but at more than 3,500 words, your "comment" cross way over the line into "rant" territory. If you care to condense it down to 800 to 1,000 words, I'd be happy to take a look.

      Your counting. At least it indicates to me that my post had more than passing interest. And yes, that might very well be true, but when you add up all the long posts you have made since I discovered Citizen Crain, your tome would make my 3500 word "rant', as you describe it, look like a footnote. ;-0

      Joking aside, however,I have to say that your comeback was a blatant cop-out. I have read every single word of every single post (rant, if you will), regardless of length, that you have put up on this site, as well as those of Andoni and Kevin as well. I have never complained about your wordiness and as the gentleman my mother raised me to be, would have been loathe to do so, lest I offend my host.

      I will admit that neither of us will ever win an award for brevity in our posts and that it will probably be a cold day in hell when either of us posts a "in 25 words or less" comment on this site.

      That said, I will not, however, condense my post down to 800 or a 1,000 words like a Reader's Digest article merely for the honor of having you deem to look at it. Not that I could ever possibly compare my words to his, but would you ask Leo Tolstoy to condense War and Peace, simply to make it more acceptable to your short attention span?

      As the owner and publisher of this blog, you could have been a gentleman and simply chosen not to reply. I would not have felt any more rebuffed by your lack of a response, than I now do with the rude and ridiculing response you just came back with.


      To my way of thinking, it only serves to illustrate that you consider your own pearls of wisdom to be of more import than those of the folks who contribute different points of view to and support your site with their commentaries. I might point out to you, especially in this day of failing newspapers, magazines, corporate downsizing and failing Internet sites, that blank blog space after espousing your oftentimes self-serving viewpoints, does not make for an interesting blog site with which to attract new readers or bloggers as wek as retaining those which you have already garnered; a point you would do well to consider before denigrating those of us who regularly visit and blog on your site.

      There are others, of equal or more interest than yours, in case you have taken notice and in saying this, I fully realize that you might very well tell me to go visit them, stay there and that I needn't bother coming back to this one.

      That too is your choice which I will respect if it comes down to that.

      After all, this is your castle and you are the king!


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