In the tank

Comments

1. Colin on Jun 20, 2008 5:35:00 PM:

   Kevin said: "It seems like left-leaning readers of this blog love to comment up a storm, while the right-leaning ones tend to send emails."

   Could it be because the left-leaning readers are loud & proud and the right-leaning ones are ashamed and closeted? Oh, touch a nerve? :)

   Okay, that was mostly said with tongue-in-cheek, so save the pillory. :)

1. Colin on Jun 20, 2008 5:38:03 PM:

   By the way, I pretty much agree with your verdict about Chris being in the tank for Obama, although I can't say I mind that much. He's a powerful voice to have on your side, IMHO.

1. Kevin on Jun 20, 2008 5:40:49 PM:

   I save no pillory for no man. The mob shall now envelope you, Colin. SWARM!

   (btw - in case it wasn't glaringly obvious, the post was very, very tongue-in-cheek, in light of all the "pissing matches" going on all over the place lately. we all gotta lighten up even as we disagree.)

1. Double T on Jun 20, 2008 5:43:07 PM:

   Kevin,
   Moderates, like me, don't think of Chris as being independent. I, and so many others, see him as a closet Republican.

   With regards to Obama, I can’t believe any “thinking” person would accuse him of being in the tank with Obama. It’s too bad that a certain amount of the discussion is done in private, via email than as a comment.

   What is Chris really guilty of? Being an Idealist!!!!

   I would love to see him run for a public office. Any office. Such an experience would completely change his view on politics

   P.S.
   Tomorrow is the first day of summer. You’re right, hit the beach.
   (Doesn’t Brazil have those over the top nude beaches? )
   

1. Matt on Jun 20, 2008 6:02:20 PM:

   'Scuze me, but a "closet Republican" would never support Obama, at least not this vehemently, just like a true conservative would never support both Kerry AND Obama (*COUGH* Sullivan *COUGH*).

   I'm so pissed off at where the GOP has gone in the past eight years that I did what I never thought I would do and switched my party registration to Independent, and while I'm not giddy for McCain, I'm also not under the hypnobama spell like the rest of y'all.

   It's a strange season when an "independent" would be so dead-set against a guy (in June, no less!) who has been so centrist and worked with so many on the other side of the aisle that most conservatives hate him, while the ultraliberal is the next coming of Jeebus or something.

1. North Dallas Thirty on Jun 20, 2008 6:05:46 PM:

   Could it be because the left-leaning readers are loud & proud and the right-leaning ones are ashamed and closeted?

   Being loud does not equate to being "proud", nor does being quieter equate to being ashamed or closeted.

1. Kevin on Jun 20, 2008 6:16:42 PM:

   TT:

   Lots of such beaches in Brazil, yes. But tomorrow is the first day of winter here. Alas, we'll be heading to the mountains.

   Insert head-for-the-hills comeback here.

   -K

1. Double T on Jun 20, 2008 7:39:10 PM:

   Insert head-for-the-hills comeback here.
   Borrow Chris' Obama Tank, if you're going off road.
   
   P.S.
   I confess I don't know ANYTHING about Brazil's weather.
   I assumed you're just like Miami.

1. Allan on Jun 20, 2008 8:30:35 PM:

   I have observed within the Democratic Party that Dems in hard-core red states become very angry and defensive when those of us from blue states make negative comments about their political landscape. They become so angry at us for criticizing their impotence and are full of defensive explanations (you have it so easy where you live, you don't appreciate the historical reasons we are the way we are, blah blah blah) that they transform US into the enemy, rather than the Repukelicans who truly oppress them.

   This same syndrome infects each and every LCR. You hate those of us who are working within a party that at least acknowledges we exist and might be entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, even if they often fail to live up to the promise of their platforms.

   Anyway, you can continue to choose to align yourself with your natural enemy in thumb-sucking hopes of convincing them not to round you up and exterminate you at the first opportunity. Remember that Hitler purged his gay adherents quickly and brutally. Whatever floats your boat.

1. Lucrece on Jun 20, 2008 9:28:25 PM:

   Allan, that Hitler parallel was out of line...

   LCR has an admirable goal (because, trust me, a political landscape where both the Republicans and Democrats compete for the gay vote would produce the best results). Sadly, they also happen to mislead potential gay voters quite a bit when they come up with preposterous claim that a candidate with obvious anti-gay leanings is "inclusive".

1. Kevin on Jun 20, 2008 10:22:59 PM:

   Who's the angry one here?

1. Charlie on Jun 21, 2008 12:25:54 AM:

   Isn't it winter in Brazil?

1. Matt on Jun 21, 2008 1:46:13 AM:

   Remember that Hitler purged his gay adherents quickly and brutally.

   And with that, Godwin's Rule brings this thread to a speedy conclusion.

1. michael on Jun 21, 2008 4:29:41 AM:

   “Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.”
   “In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.”
   “Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be
   demanded by the oppressed.”
   “The hope of a secure and livable world lies with disciplined nonconformists who are dedicated to justice, peace and brotherhood”
   These are the wise words of Dr, Martin Luther King. They inspire me to not sell nor compromise my soul anymore. I will not vote for one oppressor just because the chains he binds me with are a bit more comfortable than those of the other oppressor. I will not vote for Obama. He has affirmed that he believes marriage is between one man and one woman. Read quote #3 and never believe that he will fight for us. He is only trying to appease us by throwing us crumbs but his real concern are those, Democrat or Republican who are against gay marriage. I am not a second class citizen and I will not vote for ANYONE who wants to keep me there.

1. Allan on Jun 21, 2008 10:30:36 AM:

   Yes, it's really horrible of me to bring up Hitler in a discussion about gays who align with their oppressors. I forgot that liberals are not allowed to make relevant parallels to the Nazis, and that the only appropriate references to the Third Reich are specious ones by the right (cf Limbaugh's "feminazis" and W's lecture on appeasement to Israel).

   And michael, Obama has already issued statements opposing the ballot initiatives in FL and CA. I got married on June 17th, by the way. You do whatever works for you. I'll be registering new voters for Obama today at my local Pride festival so you won't be missed.

1. Cyrus on Jun 21, 2008 3:41:35 PM:

   In the mid to late '70s, a few years before the start of the revolution in Iran, there were those of us (albeit a small minority) who could foresee the disaster that was about to descend on the country. I was not even a teenager yet, but I was lucky enough to have parents who were secular, and encouraged me to read Paine and Voltaire instead of religious texts. I remember how many around me ridiculed me and accused me of exaggeration and being over the top for calling the Ayatollahs fascists, and comparing the fundamentalist muslims who claimed to only desire a righteous republic in Iran to Nazis. The Iranians got what they asked for....and more.
   Fast forward to today, when the regime kills its liberal opponents and dissidents. Were I in Iran today, I would be arrested for being gay and sentenced to death by stoning. So forgive me if I agree with Allen's post above. Forgive me if I feel frightened after seeing republican activists who this last week were protesting gay marriage in San Francisco by holding placards which read: "Criminalize Sodomy". And forgive me if I feel nothing but contempt for Log Cabin Republicans....
   You see, I have seen this all before. Perhaps you too should remember that Berlin had one of the most vibrant gay communities in Europe in the post-WWI era... and then came the 1930's. The Unthinkable happens when people become too complacent.
   And Allen: Congratulations on your marriage; wishing you the best, and good job on registering new voters for Obama.

1. Colin on Jun 21, 2008 3:49:23 PM:

   Allan, playing the Hitler/Nazi card is considered poor form in Internet discussions, regardless of what side you're on (Godwin's Law, aka Reductio ad Hitlerum). It doesn't matter how apt you think it might be to the particular point you're making, once you compare someone or some party to the Nazis, you've automatically foreclosed any future discussion, because how do you argue after that?

   Don't get me wrong, if you read my comments, you can see that I'm on your side here, but I would just encourage a certain decorum in these debates. :)

1. North Dallas Thirty on Jun 21, 2008 5:02:28 PM:

   I have observed within the Democratic Party that Dems in hard-core red states become very angry and defensive when those of us from blue states make negative comments about their political landscape. They become so angry at us for criticizing their impotence and are full of defensive explanations (you have it so easy where you live, you don't appreciate the historical reasons we are the way we are, blah blah blah) that they transform US into the enemy, rather than the Repukelicans who truly oppress them.

   So let's see; you insult them, you make negative comments about them, you claim they're "impotent", and you summarily dismiss everything they say because you know better.

   Then you act surprised when they get upset with you instead of the people you claim are "oppressing" them.

   Let's use an example. When Mary Cheney had her baby, the White House and the Vice President's office, as well as other Republicans, wished her all the best.

   Gay Democrats and liberals wished the baby dead.

   Mmm, let's see; do I go with the people Allan tells me hate me who wished the baby well, or do I go with the people who Allan tells me are my "friends" who wished the baby dead?

   Even more amusing, if, as Allan implies, saying that marriage is between a man and a woman and supporting bans on same-sex marriage makes one a Nazi "oppressor" who wants to kill all gays, why did HRC and the national gay organizations spend so much time and so much morning endorsing and supporting state and Federal marriage amendment supporters as "pro-gay" and "gay-supportive", especially when they could have supported Democrats like Dennis Kucinich and Mike Gravel that were completely aligned with them on gay issues?

   With that in mind, what these broadsides against gay Republicans start to sound like are the "white nigger", "oreo", "Uncle Tom", and so forth that spring out of the mouths of black Democrat leaders and party members whenever a black person doesn't vote or support Democrats. It is, as this article discusses, a social control mechanism that, in this case, happens to be wielded by black leaders who have gained power based on the promise of delivering a unified "black vote". If Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, or Jeremiah Wright cannot deliver the votes, they will have no influence; hence, any deviation from the norm or difference of opinion represents a fundamental and primal threat to their positions. Thus, they encourage this sort of verbal abuse of those who deviate from what they establish as "the norm", demonizing "whitey" and denouncing any black person who would dare offer the opinion that "whitey" is not to blame for all of peoples' problems.

   This behavior has a long and distinguished history among gay and lesbian Democrats as well. I've already heard from many sources that the Obama campaign is encouraging this type of "Jewish Nazi" rhetoric, both to force gay Republicans into line and to persuade wavering Hillary Clinton voters who are upset about her treatment and/or concerned about Obama's lack of experience and extreme liberalism that their lives will be much easier if they just do as they're told.

   As we see with Allan's posting, it seems that's been confirmed rather remarkably.

1. Allan on Jun 21, 2008 9:40:29 PM:

   Thank you Cyrus, your eyewitness testimony is revealing.

   North Dallas Thirty does an admirable job of attributing things I have not said to me, then attacking that straw man instead of my comments.

   First, I never said I am surprised when those who have aligned themselves with their oppressors resent having it called to their attention.

   It's also truly admirable of ND30 that s/he has devoted him/herself so fervently to defending the Cheney's grandchild from words typed on the internet. Perhaps if some of that outrage were focused on people who literally kill the ND30s of this world every day, I might be more impressed.

   As for Kucinich (great guy, and firmly on the left edge of the party, thus better as an agitator who pushes the party than as its leader) and Gravel (if America thought Howard Dean was too "wacky" to be President...), I remind ND30 that "perfect is the enemy of good."

   Barack Obama has the most LGBT-positive agenda of any major political party's Presidential nominee in American history, and though not perfect, that is good enough for me.

   I don't know why ND30 brings up Sharpton, Jackson and Wright, since none of them are candidates for the Presidency, but perhaps ND30's comfort with using the n-word while chastizing others for their rhetorical offenses against civility and decency gives us a hint.

   And since ND30 believes that Obama is too extremely liberal, although there was little difference between Obama and Clinton on most issues, I am confident ND30 would similarly decry Hillary's liberalism were she to have prevailed.
   

1. Hawyer on Jun 21, 2008 11:44:57 PM:

   Kevin dearest .... to wit: [And finally, there is the attack on McCain's personal life, and convicting McCain of having committed adultery against his first wife with his now-wife with mere hearsay evidence.]

   Sorry, but McCain's adulterous affair with Cindy Hensley while he was still married to his first wive Carol Shepp McCain is quite well documented.

   http://partners.nytimes.com/library/politics/camp/022700wh-gop-mccain.html?scp=4&sq=Nicholas%20Kristof%20John%20McCain%20adultery&st=cse

1. Hawyer on Jun 21, 2008 11:46:45 PM:

   Kevin dearest .... to wit: [And finally, there is the attack on McCain's personal life, and convicting McCain of having committed adultery against his first wife with his now-wife with mere hearsay evidence.]

   Sorry, but McCain's adulterous affair with Cindy Hensley while he was still married to his first wive Carol Shepp McCain is quite well documented.

   http://partners.nytimes.com/library/politics/camp/022700wh-gop-mccain.html?scp=4&sq=Nicholas%20Kristof%20John%20McCain%20adultery&st=cse

1. North Dallas Thirty on Jun 22, 2008 2:07:21 AM:

   First, I never said I am surprised when those who have aligned themselves with their oppressors resent having it called to their attention.

   Thank you, Allan; what you have demonstrated is that the Obama campaign and Obama supporters like yourself are calling Democrats who disagree with you traitors who are "aligning with their oppressors".

   
   It's also truly admirable of ND30 that s/he has devoted him/herself so fervently to defending the Cheney's grandchild from words typed on the internet. Perhaps if some of that outrage were focused on people who literally kill the ND30s of this world every day, I might be more impressed.

   Obviously you've never seen me comment on Iran, Syria, Hizbollah, Hamas, the Taliban, Saddam Hussein, and others.

   Perhaps I'd be more impressed if you could find it in your heart to say that gay and lesbian Democrats who wish other peoples' children dead are disgusting people. But that would require you to criticize good Obama supporters, and might thus expose you to criticism that you are "aligned with your oppressors".

   
   As for Kucinich (great guy, and firmly on the left edge of the party, thus better as an agitator who pushes the party than as its leader) and Gravel (if America thought Howard Dean was too "wacky" to be President...), I remind ND30 that "perfect is the enemy of good."

   But perfect is what gay Democrats demand of others; why should they not be held to their own standards?

   
   I don't know why ND30 brings up Sharpton, Jackson and Wright, since none of them are candidates for the Presidency, but perhaps ND30's comfort with using the n-word while chastizing others for their rhetorical offenses against civility and decency gives us a hint.

   It wouldn't be an Obama supporter if it didn't accuse someone of being a racist.

   I must admit, Obama and his campaign have impressed me with their cynical willingness to exploit the apparently genetic-level aversion that so many Democrats have against being called a racist, and in far too many cases, it's worked. But, once they figure out that Obama and his supporters like Allan use "racist" as a means of avoiding any questioning about their qualifications, strategy, or tactics, even good Democrats come around, especially when they realize that Obama clapped and cheered for twenty-plus years while all three of the people I mentioned ranted about "whitey" and "Hymietown".

   Until it became politically inconvenient, of course.

   
   And since ND30 believes that Obama is too extremely liberal, although there was little difference between Obama and Clinton on most issues, I am confident ND30 would similarly decry Hillary's liberalism were she to have prevailed.

   LOL....Allan, I agree a lot more with Hillary on several issues than I do with Obama. Add to that the fact that Hillary actually has experience and achievements that weren't dependent on her minority status, and she's a far better choice than Obama ever could be.

   I can be persuaded to vote for a decent Democrat, as I did when I chose DiFi over McClintock. But Obama's not a decent Democrat; he's a race charlatan who exemplifies the worst of the Democrat Party's tendency to put minority status ahead of competence and intelligence and to use knee-jerk responses like "racist" or "homophobe" when they are criticized for doing so.

1. Allan on Jun 22, 2008 11:22:08 AM:

   ND30, while wrongly conflating me with those you characterize as demanding perfection you forgot to refute the remainder of my thought on the topic "perfect is the enemy of good:"

   Barack Obama has the most LGBT-positive agenda of any major political party's Presidential nominee in American history, and though not perfect, that is good enough for me.

   This straw man against whom you rail sounds like a pretty despicable person. If I ever meet him I'll let him know you really really hate him.

   And I would suggest that if you typed the full name of the Democratic Party you wouldn't be so easily spotted as a Republic.